Dive into discussions on harnessing the economic potential of ocean systems, from coastal industries to new technologies, to power sustainable prosperity
In “Velocity of the Blue Economy,” panelists reframed the ocean as an economic engine under acute stress—and argued that competitiveness and sustainability now rise or fall together. Moderator David Gelles cited the scale and fragility of the system: ocean industries could exceed $3 trillion by 2030, while heatwaves, coral bleaching, depleted fish stocks, and widespread ecosystem degradation threaten the asset base itself.
Indonesia’s Minister Sakti Wahyu Trenggono positioned ocean stewardship as national strategy, outlining five priorities: expand marine protected areas toward 30% by 2045, quota-based fisheries, sustainable aquaculture, stronger coastal and small-island surveillance, and community-led action on plastics. He emphasized blue carbon, noting Indonesia’s vast mangrove and seagrass reserves, and called for partnerships and financing, announcing an Ocean Impact Summit in 2026.
Scripps Director Meenakshi Wadhwa underscored that better measurement enables better management, pointing to AI-driven modeling, environmental DNA, pollution tracking, and coral-restoration biotech. Ports emerged as pivotal leverage points: Rotterdam CEO Boudewijn Siemons stressed long-term “nature positive” planning and alternative fuels, bluntly adding, “We’re the problem.”
EU Commissioner Apostolos Tzitzikostas argued for “well regulated but not over regulated” policy, tying sustainability to jobs and tourism. Consensus formed around global alignment via the IMO to preserve a level playing field, with an aspiration for an IMO low-carbon shipping agreement next October.
I'm the managing correspondent for Climate Forward for The New York Times. When we talk about the ocean, most people often think about it as nature. But today's conversation, we need to start from a, I think, a very different premise. The ocean is also a powerful and really vital, perhaps even undervalued economic system, one that supports a huge amount of global trade, huge amounts of economic activity all around the globe. By 2030, ocean based industries are expected to generate more than $3 trillion per year, and about 80% of global trade today moves by sea. 3 billion people rely on seafood as a major source of protein, and the infrastructure beneath the ocean shipping lanes, fiber optic cables is really the underpinning of the global economy. And yet, let's not kid ourselves. This economy, this engine of growth, is under enormous threat right now. Overexploitation, climate change, biodiversity loss and pollution all colliding with rising demand today. Consider these facts 90% of the global ocean experienced extreme maritime heat waves in recent years, most intense and widespread on record. Record global coral bleaching, something we've been covering extensively at the New York Times, is threatening 84% or more of the world's coral reefs. Sustainable fish stocks have declined sharply from nearly 90% of stock in a healthy place in 1974 to less than 60% today, and an estimated 60% of the world's maritime ecosystems are degraded or being used unsustainably. That's the world we're living in today, and I think it makes clear just how urgent the threats are and how pressing the need is for a different path forward. So how do we square this challenge? How do we continue enjoying the economic benefits of the ocean without destroying it? And perhaps more idealistically, sometimes I think too idealistically, we got to think about is there something close to a regenerative path forward? Is there a way we can actually engage with the ocean? Use the ocean to support humans economic activity, while also restoring some of the damage we've done? We've got a great panel here to help us make sense of this. I'm going to start by inviting Minister Sakti Wahyu from, to begin with, some opening remarks. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Thank you. Okay, distinguished panelists, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of, in the Indonesian government, I would like to thank World Economic Forum for convening, convening this session. The ocean is the heart of global action to protect nature and fight climate change. But today, our oceans face a serious threat, such as warming seas, rising acidification, edification, collapsing fisheries and marine pollution. Our ocean is calling for our collective actions for saving and managing responsibly. As the world's largest archipelagic state, Indonesia reaffirmed its commitment. Because the ocean is our history, ocean is a part of our history, our identity and our future. This session is about Felicity, the speed and action to need to move quickly and work together. Businesses, governments and communities must work together to accelerate ocean positive transitions by leveraging market opportunities, policy leadership and enabling regulatory framework, we can deliver benefits for people, planet and the economy. Indonesia is ready to lead. Under the leadership of President Prabowo, the blue economy is one of key pillars of our national vision as the cheetah to ensure sustainable growth and prosperity. Indonesia continues to lead by example, delivering tangible action. Our blue economy policy is built on ecological integrity, social equity and inclusive growth. We are implementing five priority programs of Blue economy number one expanding marine conservation areas to cover 30% of our waters by 2045. Number two, implementing quota based responsible fisheries. Number three promoting sustainable aquaculture. Number four strengthening ecosystem surveillance and coastal and small island. And number five engaging fishermen and coastal communities and reducing marine plastic pollution. With 3.44 million hectares of mangroves and 1.8 million hectares of seagrass, we host as one of the largest, largest blue carbon reserve in the world, storing an estimated estimated 70% of global blue carbon. The coastal ecosystem serves as a critical carbon sink and contributes to regulate the global climate and ocean health. We must also strengthen access to innovative and inclusive source of financing, and Indonesia continues to develop innovative financing. Distinguished, distinguished guests Indonesia cannot do alone for tangible ocean action. We need strong partnership to share knowledge, technology and investment. Together, we can restore the ocean and create a better future for all. I am proud to announce Indonesia will host the Ocean Impact Summit 2026 to bring leaders, businesses and experts together to turn ideas into real action. Let us make this session a turning point for speed and impact. Because a healthy ocean means a healthy planet and a strong economy for everyone. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister.
So very cold.
It's fantastic. And you brought up a bunch of points that I didn't have the chance to address in my opening remarks. Things like plastics pollution, the health of plant life associated with the ocean, and the fact that the ocean is an enormous carbon sink. And if anyone saw Professor Rostrums plenary, I believe it was on Tuesday, he included some extraordinary graphs that show the fact that the ocean has absorbed so much of the pollution that humans have emitted over the last 150 years, but that even that capacity to absorb may be starting to diminish. So, so many issues to contend with. Mina, I want to turn the conversation to you, please, at the Scripps Institute. You guys study the ocean as closely as anyone, and I wonder if you could expand on some of my remarks and the minister's remarks and give us sort of like a, a, a health check on the oceans. How are they doing? What have you seen and what is the forecast going forward?
So that's a really broad and ambitious question there, of course. But what we do at Scripps Institution of Oceanography is also very broad and ambitious. Good. You know, we are really engaged. And first of all, you know, data and observations are sort of a key part of what we do. We're involved in all aspects of observation of the ocean systems from satellites, from autonomous sensors. You know, the Argo floats, for example, are part of the data that we involve in understanding the ocean system and ocean dynamics, as well as other autonomous sensors, that are that have been deployed. And then, of course, the modeling aspect is a really important one as well. And that's particularly, you know, AI driven modeling of, for example, ocean atmosphere interactions and ocean dynamics, which, I think, again, in terms of modeling our ocean system, you know, that's really been a very, very powerful tool that's that's helping us do that a lot better. In particular, I mean, I just wanted to kind of highlight one of the things that's, you know, one of the aspects, of work that we're doing at Scripps, for example, that's helping us, you know, even on the kind of, planning for, operations and planning, having helping businesses, actually in a way that, was not possible before our center for Western weather and weather and water extremes in particular, for example, they're utilizing ocean monitoring, ocean atmosphere monitoring and modeling to really make sort of unprecedented, predictive capabilities forecasts for extreme weather events, for example, that are helping the state of California now plan for reservoir operations. And that really sort of helps us with our drought resilience planning, and certainly for government as well as industry, to sort of plan for these extreme weather events that can then, of course, have great impacts down the road. So, you know, those are just sort of that's just an example then, of the kinds of things that are happening at Scripps that are really, I think, an incredible sort of input that businesses can use as well as government.
Absolutely. And we know that science is a key part of whatever interventions, whatever reforms we're going to make. I wonder if I could just press one more time as you take a holistic view on sort of the health of the world's oceans?
Yes.
Can you just give us, give us, give us a health check, if you will?
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, you know, I offered some pretty dire statistics. Do you concur with that assessment or is there a more hopeful view you might want to offer?
We are in a place right now that that is very concerning. You mentioned the fact that oceans are and Johan Rockström mentioned the fact that the ocean is actually absorbing a lot of the sort of impacts that we are having to the climate system, you know, absorbing something like 30% of all CO2 at this point and 90% of of the heat, the excess heat from global warming. And this is absolutely having a really deleterious impact on our ocean systems, but also feel hopeful because we have technologies now and approaches now that are available that are enabling us to actually try to do something about it. I think there's, you know, things like AI is certainly helping things like environmental DNA monitoring, for example, are things that I think will be brought to bear on addressing these questions. And so I'm hopeful that, you know, there'll be regulatory frameworks that are defined by these, these new approaches that we have that will help.
Okay. Thank you. Commissioner, let me turn to you. The framing for the conversation is, is squarely centered on the economy. But, of course, the ocean supports much more than just economic activity. There's security concerns. There are tourism. When you take a view, looking at all the ways in which the European Community needs to have a sustainable, healthy ocean ecosystem, what are some of the most pressing concerns, and where do you look for interventions that might chart a more sustainable path forward?
Well, this is a very correct, if I may say, question, because we have to take in mind that blue economy is not just about the environment, it's about the economy. It's about our competitiveness and about our security. And of course, we need to underline that sustainability is not, again, only for the environment. Sustainability has to do with jobs. It has to do with people. It has to do with societies. It has to do with our economy. So having said that, I would tell you that in my view, in the blue economy, the ports are playing a protagonistic role. And, they are at the center as well as shipping of the efforts that we all need to do in order to move to a sustainable future for our oceans. So what we are preparing in the European Union at this point is the a new EU strategy for ports and for the maritime sector, which will address all the current and future challenges of these sectors and therefore, in this way addressing issues of the blue economy as well. For example, in the port strategy, we will be addressing issues of energy of, as I said earlier, skills of the people who work. There are issues of competitiveness on how to address, the way the ports collaborate together, because this is a very important question. And of course, how we will, boost the sustainability in the sense of, the alternative fuels that need to be used in the maritime and shipping sectors in order to, lower the footprint, because, as you know, transport is one of the main contributors to the CO2 emissions. So we have a lot of work ahead of us. We are preparing these two strategies that we will be presenting in February next month, and on which we have been building alongside with all the stakeholders of the European Union, from our ports authorities to, the shipping associations and of course, the citizens. We have opened up a consultation and, we have involved several actors, such as environmental associations as well, because as I said earlier, we need to have a comprehensive approach if we want to address the issue of sustainability in our oceans. The blue economy is a link that links millions of jobs and a huge part of the European economy. Only the maritime transport sector brings to the European economy €60 billion revenue. So you have to understand that it is a huge sector and that the only way to address it, if we address it in an approach of a comprehensive manner. And as the Minister said earlier, and I totally agree with you with good and strong collaboration, because when it comes to the oceans, when it comes to the blue economy, no one actor can work alone. It has to be a collective effort.
Thank you very much. You mentioned the role of ports, and we're fortunate to have the CEO of the Port of Rotterdam on the panel with us. I wonder as from where you sit, and let's be real, I mean, ports have a vital role to play, the commissioner said. And yet they are really at the center of much of the industry. And as a result, the pollution that is causing some of the problems that we already acknowledged. How as the CEO of the Port of Rotterdam, do you work to sort of amplify the positive economic impacts while trying to make headway in addressing some of the real challenges associated with ports?
Yeah, it's it's a very interesting question because if you, only see the amount of topics that the commissioner already raised, it all comes together in ports. So just to give you a little bit of background, our port of Rotterdam alone throughputs like 440 million tons of goods, 30,000 seagoing vessels annually coming in and out, 100,000 barges, and we stand on three legs. That's logistics. We're a huge energy hub in Europe. 13% of total. Europe's energy flows through the port of Rotterdam. And we have chemical production, mainly chemical, but production in the port of Rotterdam, those are the three legs we stand on. And yet everything we do has to be done balanced with the environment. And that means that you have so many goals that you want to achieve as a port, that you cannot score 100% result within a year on every goal that you want to achieve. It all has to be balanced out. But we also must make sure that it's not only about the economy, because that would be very shortsighted. And as a port, we and that's what I like about my job. We have the obligation to make sure that the port, the economy and the environment are still relevant ten, 20, 30, 40 years from now. So that means you have to plan, and that means that we have to plan on a European level with regard to a European port strategy, but we have to also have a regional and local strategy. So besides from our our strategic plan for the coming five years, we've developed a nature vision, how we can actually develop and run the port in balance with nature. Now that sounds very nice, but look it up. It's on. It's on our website. This this strategy, it's about how we want to go about this between 25 and 2050 and actually become nature positive while doing so. So that the I like the question, what is your enterprise contribute to the society? And in the end, that has to be a positive. And some, we're not there yet, but we'll get there. And to put it into practical terms, it also means, and I agree with the commissioner, that you have to collaborate and for instance, on things like renewable shipping fuels. We work closely together with the Maritime Port Authority in Singapore, and we're developing and together with 25 companies that are active in this segment, because it's logistics, it's production. There's it's, certification agencies. And we're working on, for instance, ammonia bunkering that will be there. I mean, in 1 or 2 years from now. And then as a support, we have to be ready to support this. So we last year in in May, we performed the first, worldwide import, bunker operation with ammonia, or I should say ship to ship transfer because there's not such a thing as ammonia bunker barge yet, but we'll be ready. We already bunker methanol. We already bunker LNG and LNG fuels. So we we we actually made, a plan, a maturity model for different alternative renewable bunker fuels, actually, to bring them to maturity and to be able to service the shipping companies. Well, there's there's a lot of other examples that I could give how we build key walls, and simultaneously give way to the growth of reefs in the port. How the flat oyster returned to the port of Rotterdam, which is an indication of the water quality that we've been working on. We we actually grow our own trees. I mean, the port, let's be honest, it's not a it's not a nature preserve area, but the biggest, adversary to nature might be us as humans. And despite the fact that 200,000 people work in the port of Rotterdam, they're working very concentrated places. So there's a lot of room for nature. And in that sense, we can act as a nature preserve area. And we have, as a port of Rotterdam, our own rangers who actually preserve nature in the port. Now, again, we still have a long way to go, but it absolutely is within our responsibility and on our radar screen.
Thank you very much. Just making a note of it. If I got your quote correctly, I think you said the biggest adversary to nature might be us humans. That was that accurate. And I think that's the kind of, frank acknowledgement that is incumbent on us here to actually acknowledge. And it's one thing to talk about creating a blue economy, but doing so, I think, needs to start with the recognition.
That's absolutely true.
That the problems that we're trying to address.
We're the problem.
We're the problem.
Yeah.
Given that, Mina, I think again, that there's this temptation to be so hopeful and I'm not trying to be a doomer, I'm not trying to be a doomer here. And so the question for you is, can you point to any examples where we have seen, human activity create real problems in the ocean, whether it's overfishing, whether it's pollution, and where we can identify that they have been successfully restored, because I think we need those kind of examples to to give us hope and examples that show that there is a way forward.
Yes. So I can give you a real example there of something that's happening locally. In our region, we've seen, for example, in recent years, a lot of pollution that has been transferred from the Tijuana River just just south of our border, into our ocean systems and Imperial Beach in San Diego. I think, you know, there's been beach closures now for for extended durations because the water is getting polluted in the ocean as a result of that, the, you know, the pollution that the sewage, actually, that's being transferred from the Tijuana River into, into the water, there's been a concerted effort now where we have been able to monitor and actually demonstrate that that pollution is transferring not just into the water, but also as aerosol into the atmosphere. And people are breathing that in. And it's actually impacting, of course, you know, marine life in that area. It's impacting, human ability to actually enjoy being on the beach. Even so, people can't get in the water. And so, and because we've been able to demonstrate that there's actually been now some regulatory things that have come into effect where now they're starting to actually, limit the ability of for the, the, the drainage systems to actually drain into the, into the oceans. And this is now starting to have an impact where it's starting to get it's only just beginning at this point. But again, you know, with the ability to actually we can't manage something if we can't measure it, we can't protect things if we don't understand them. And so I think we are providing the tools and the ability to actually pinpoint the places where there are problems and, and then start to do something about it. Another example is some of the work that we're doing with coral restoration. And, you know, we've seen, for example, many places in the world, and you highlighted that at the beginning in your comments that, you know, we've been losing to coral bleaching, for example, a lot of the coral systems and coral reefs of the world. And, we are now starting to develop technologies that are actually producing these, compounds and biomolecules that now are able to restore coral in a way that we hadn't been able to do before. So biotechnology is actually playing a role in our ability to restore some of these really delicate ecosystems. And so I think, you know, yes, absolutely. I think we're in we're not in a great, great place right now. But I think with greater awareness and with greater, again, intervention, the science can play a big role in terms of bringing us back from the brink.
Back from the brink. If we're on the brink, we're in trouble because things aren't changing very fast. You raised something that that maybe one of our next two speakers wants to address, which is the role of regulation. And I just I just invoke that because I think it's an important point here, especially on something, you know, something as vast and as common as the ocean, which crosses literally every, regulatory, area in the world, finding common regulation very challenging. First, though, Commissioner, I wonder if you could address the role of tourism. She just invoked this image of a beach. A beach that is suddenly closed because of pollution coming downstream from a river. And when you talk about the ocean, not only as a source of economic activity, but more broadly something that encompasses security tourism as well, how do you think about, again, sort of, using it and actively pursuing economic development near oceans near, you know, as part of a tourist agenda without exacerbating some of these problems that we've already acknowledged are so severe. Yeah.
Well, you should know that in the European Union, we take tourism very seriously. It is a basic pillar of our economy. It amounts to about 10% of the EU GDP. For many countries, it's more than 20%. It gives the opportunity to 20 million people to work 20 million jobs, and 40% of the global tourism happens in Europe, in the European Union. So you understand that it is a significant pillar of our economy. Only this year, 2025, we received 3 billion nights, which is 7% higher than the pre-COVID period. And as you understand, since we are talking about millions of people, we are talking also about a heavy footprint on the missions we are mount. The amount is about 8%, that tourism contributes to the CO2 emissions. So we need to act and we will act as a matter of fact, being the first ever commissioner responsible for tourism, I can tell you that the first thing that we are doing now is that we're preparing the first ever EU strategy for tourism. It will be, again, a comprehensive approach towards all the challenges that the tourism sector is facing today. We will present this in April of 2026, and it will basically address all the main issues from the need to, make our infrastructure more resilient because of the climate crisis to the need to digitalize. And the SMEs, which are the major part of the tourism sector today in Europe. And of course, issues that have to do with the dual transition digitalization, the green economy, the clean economy, I would say in our communities. And, to address issues of, such as the unbalanced tourism phenomenon that we see and that also creates problems to our environment, but also to the local communities that live in a destination. And this needs to be addressed. And so we will be, creating a data center, a data space for Europe where all the major actors will be able to use this data in order to remap the flows of incoming tourists. And we will give the opportunity to regional and local authorities to address the matter of unbalanced tourism through destination management organisations. And we will also support, through European programs, local and regional communities trying to make lesser known destination no better known in the world and to deviate the tourism flows not only in the peak months but also around the year. So we need a strategy here that will help again, sustainability in tourism, not only in the view of the environment, but also in the protection of the cultural heritage of our regions and our destinations, and also, of course, of the well-being of our societies. So, for the European Union, and we will be working very closely with our stakeholders in the tourism sector in the coming months. We are preparing this strategy that will, hopefully answer to the questions that, we are discussing today. Because indeed, most of these tourism destinations are when it comes especially to the southern part of Europe, close to the sea. So in connection to the oceans, and this is a whole ecosystem that is connected and linked together. Yeah.
Thank you Minister, I know you were focused on your opening remarks, but at this point in the conversation, is there anything you would like to add from the perspective of Indonesia?
Yes. For me it's, how we are protecting our ocean. Indonesia. We just concern about the ecology is number one, a lot of economic activity actually, that for the shipping, for, marine tourism, as a lot of, influence to the ocean. Healthy. So that that's why I'm, I'm focused on how to to make it the new regulation, like five pillars of regulation. Yeah. To protect our conservation. And then how to manage, fishing vessel and then moving, hunting, hunting the, fish to the ocean and then moving to aquaculture and then monitoring small island because small island is good for tourism, right? Yeah. And then number four, number five is how we, we, together with fishermen and communities on the coastal, to responsible for the ocean health, like plastic, especially something like that.
Thank you very much.
Yeah.
I wonder if we could return to you and maybe you could help us tackle this question of regulation. You said at this interesting nexus, the private sector. But of course, your subject to so many of the the national regional regulations as well, when you think about all the challenges we've addressed over the last 30 minutes or so, what are the types of regulations that you feel like would be most effective in helping, again, chart a more sustainable path forward, while continuing to allow the economic activity to to to flourish?
Well, regulation is, I think, a an interesting topic, and a difficult topic when it comes to oceans because, there are so many regulators around the world and what makes it very difficult for regulations. And we already see that in, in Europe when the European Commission issues a regulation and then it gets translated into, national legislation, then there's often, differences in timing and differences in interpretation. And then the level playing field is gone. Now you see that on a global level too. And for instance, the EU, enforcing the ETS system on shipping, which is a good thing because there's no alternative at this moment in time. And on the same, at the same time, it, slightly, makes the European economy less competitive because it adds to the cost price of, of shipping goods. So I think that in shipping we have the unique, regulating body of the IMO, one of the only international bodies that can actually regulate. And then regionally, it's being enforced. But look at what happened with the sulfur content of fuel oil.
I'm so glad you brought that up.
And now look at what we have to do with, renewable fuels. Now, last October it didn't pass. And that's a pity, but we should try again and again and again, because that's the way to actually set a global regulation on fuels. And that is a that's a big issue, getting the carbon content down of shipping fuels with I don't have the numbers available. I should have them. But it's, it's it's huge, emission reductions that we can achieve. And then directly it would be a global regulation. And then regional regulators will not have to top it off with regional regulations distorting the global level playing field. So I look forward to a very strict IMO regulation that enables the EU to actually drop the EU regulation, because there's something already that supersedes it on a global level. And then lastly, when we talk about regulations, I love regulators who say what has to be done, for instance, in terms of fuels, just say what the carbon content should be and what the pathway is to zero shipping, zero emission shipping. The moment regulators start dictating, the, the techniques in which the solutions in which this should be done, you kind of take the initiative away of the market, let the market innovate and dictate or find out the way that this will be achieved, and then let the regulators determine the pathway. And, and the end result that we're aiming for.
Yeah. Thank you Commissioner. Jump in.
I couldn't agree more. We are not here to dictate to the market or to anyone why and how to do something. We are the European Union, not the Soviet Union, but we need to put targets. We do, and I agree.
Yeah.
And we need also to make sure that these targets create a level playing field. And this is why I agree with you 100% on the need to have an agreement at a global level through the IMO, and in which case Europe will fully align its policies with the IMO. I want to be very clear about that. So let's work towards a more sustainable approach on IMO, a more pragmatic approach on IMO that all countries or the majority of them could agree on. And let's put forward a policy that would be global, that will create a level playing field that will not hurt European competitiveness, because the way it works today is completely right, hurts our European competitiveness. And we always need to keep in mind of one thing. Do you know what the footprint of shipping is to the CO2 emissions? 3%.
Economy of Germany.
That's it. So of course we need to step up our efforts. Of course we need to create a global level playing field. But we always have to have the big picture in mind.
Thank you Nina.
Jump in. I was just going to say that, you know we heard about global regulation, the need for that and for that kind of global regulatory framework. But I think what you really need for that, you need a global or a common operating system, which really the basis for that has to be some sort of global ocean, data intelligence commons. And I think that that's that's where the challenge is really as well. I mean, we have tremendous amounts of data available at the current time from all of the assets that we have from space, you know, Earth observation, from space, from autonomous sensors, but to really sort of combine that into into a database that really then is freely available globally. I think that's that's a challenge. And I think that's something to aim for.
Yeah. And I mean, I'm you, like myself, are based in the United States and our government is retreating from international scientific collaboration right now. So how do you assess the viability of a project like that at this moment?
Yeah, I mean, I it makes things a lot harder for sure for the short term. But again, I mean, I'm, I'm hoping that that that attitude is going to change.
Yeah. All right. We have less than two minutes. I want to do a speed round. One aspiration from each of you. Something that you would most like to see if you could snap your fingers, wave your magic wand. What? One intervention. Whether local, regional policy would you like to see, Minister? Would you like to begin innovating? Thank you. Nina, please.
I'm going to go back to that. The global data intelligence, Commons.
Okay. Who would run it?
It would have to be some, a body that's sort of like a UN type. Yeah,
Yeah, well, and the more on that we have Peter in the audience, I'm sure he's got thoughts, but we're almost out of time, Commissioner.
I want to see an economy that is well regulated but not over regulated.
European Union, not the Soviet Union.
Like overregulation, is a disaster to our economy and our competitiveness. And so we need to focus on which regulations are need to be in place, how they can be simplifying things and helping the market breathe and produce.
Good. One last word.
I'm going to be very practical. I'd like next October IMO, to, to adopt this low carbon shipping, regulation and we have to work towards that all together to make that happen. That'd be a very practical and significant first step.
And it's, it's it's the kind of thing that is not only, aspirational but attainable. So we'll see if it's done a year from now when we all return. Thank you all very much. Thank you to our panel.
Thank you. Thanks.